Recording in New York

New York is always great if you’re a visiting jazz musician. The sheer concentration of high level musicians there is unequalled anywhere else in the world. I’m not sure how many times I’ve been to NY – must be approaching twenty times at this stage – and I’ve been there in many capacities, as a tourist, as a teacher, and as a performer, but this was my first time there to make a recording. Earlier this year I decided that it was about time I recorded a new album - my last one (Renaissance Man with John Abercrombie), though only released last year, was in fact recorded in 2008. Such are the vagaries of the recording business these days that it took four years to get it out.... 

So it was definitely time to record again, and as I thought about it, I came to the realisation that I'd like to record it in New York, and do it with some musicians who were a) great, and b) with whom I had a history. Quite often musicians go to NY to make Allstar-type albums, and many times the results are unedifying since there's almost no rapport between the leader and his or her sidemen. In these situations there's often a 'guns for hire' feeling from the NY musicians - of course they play great, but they're there because they've been hired and since it's not a working band, they don't really have an investment in the result. I didn't want that, so I asked two musicians with whom I'd played in the past - Tom Rainey and Dave Binney - to record with me, and my son Chris, who's an up and coming guitarist in his own right and who (for obvious reasons), also knows my music and whom I knew would put the work into learning the sometimes difficult pieces.

So early in January Chris and I took off for NY - I decided to go a few days earlier in order to be able to see some music, and to ensure that jetlag would play no part in the recording process. If you travel that far and at quite an expense, the last thing you want is to be sleepy during the recording! We arrived on the coldest New York day for months, just missing a snowstorm and arriving from a relatively balmy 8 degrees in Dublin to a frigid -10 or so in New York. I'd seen the forecast so I had brought the right gear for the weather, but it's always a shock to step into that kind of icy wind, one of a kind we don't ever get in Ireland. More cold weather was forecast for the week that we were there, but I think the media really hype up the approach of bad weather - there was quite a bit of hysteria around the idea of the 'polar vortex' that was apparently going to strip the skin off our faces if we went out for more than five seconds. It reminded me of the great send up of this kind of media-induced panic from the Simpsons….

Our (perfect) host while we were in New York was the wonderful bassist and all-round great guy Arthur Kell who has a fantastic house in Bedford Stuyvesant in Brooklyn, complete with much of the original 19th Century woodwork intact - in a city where space is at a premium, Arthur's house is spacious and full of character and we were very lucky to be able to be able to base ourselves there for the duration. Shortly after we arrived we were also lucky to be able to see a fine concert by Arthur's quartet at Matt Garrison's very nice venue Shapeshifter Lab in Brooklyn. This was my first time visiting this venue, and I was very impressed - it has good sight lines and, from where I was sitting, the sound was very clear.

(Arthur Kell's Quartet, playing at Shapeshifter Lab)

Arthur's music is quite unique, complex at times yet always tuneful, and with some really nice hooks to the pieces. It's very hard to put your finger on what the music sounds like in terms of being able to compare it to one modern jazz genre or another, it really is very characterful music with a sound of its own. For this gig the guitarist Nate Radley subbed for the altoist Loren Stillman and did an incredible job on virtually sight reading the music - more evidence of the kind of high craft skills you find in New York. I'd heard some of this music before, but it was very interesting to hear it with two guitars, (the other musicians, apart from Arthur on bass, were Brad Shepik on guitar and Mark Ferber on drums), it gave it a very different and attractive sound. At the end of the gig I ran into Matt Garrison which was really a pleasure - I hadn't seen him since 1993 when he was a student at the IASJ meeting in Siena in Italy, so it was nice to see him again. Of course apart from running this great venue he is also an incredible bassist……

Sunday also gave me a chance to meet with and catch up with the guitarist and arranger Dave O Rourke, an Irish jazz export to NY, and someone I've known since we both met queuing up to see Louis Stewart play in the late 70s in Dublin. Dave runs the fantastic Jazz Standard Jazz Discovery Program at the club of the same name, a development program me for youngsters in New York which both gives them an educational element and an opportunity to play in one of NY's finest clubs. As always it was great to meet up with Dave and talk about the past, present and future of what's been going on with us since we last met. Dave's made a serious career for himself in NY, as an arranger and composer, and is without doubt one of the most generous people I've ever met in the business. Dublin's loss was NY's gain….

(Left to right - Lindsey Horner, RG, David Gage, Chris)

The following day was a busy one - beginning with a trip to Brooklyn to have a session with Matt Jacobson - an Irish drummer livening in NY for a year on a Fullbright Scholarship - and some other young musicians. We just got together and played through some tunes and some open improvising. It was an effective way to loosen up and reconnect to the instrument again in preparation for the recording, and all the young guys sounded really good.

Then we were off into midtown Manhattan to meet one of my oldest musical friends Lindsey Horner, and visit the very legendary bass shop owned by David Gage. If there is an acoustic bass Mecca anywhere, then this is it - the signed photographs on the wall alone are testimony to the fact that this is the the place to come and buy a bass, or have a bass repaired, or just to chew the fat and see what's happening in the bass world. The shop has a great vibe - a sense of professional pride in their work is in the air, and you get a feeling of old-school craftsmanship from meeting the people who work there, and from watching them at work. I'd never met David before, but Lindsey introduced us and he very kindly gave us a tour of the building, which is being refurbished upstairs and is deceptively big. Floor after floor of basses….. it doesn't get much better than this if you're a bassist, and we even were invited onto the roof, which had a spectacular view, and from which the photo at the top of this piece was taken.

Then it was back to Brooklyn to meet my brother Dara, who's been living and working as a Drum and Bass DJ in New York for almost twenty years. We met him and his partner Meredith, and again had fun catching up, at a great Turkish restaurant  where I ate not wisely, but too well…. it's always a dangerous thing to eat so much food when slightly jet-lagged, especially when you know that you've still someplace to go - and we really had somewhere special to go - the Village Vanguard to see the Vanguard Jazz Orchestra.

The VJO is truly the Rolls Royce of jazz orchestras. Their combination of a tradition stretching back to 1964, the opportunity to play every Monday night over such a long period, having the best writers composing for them (Thad Jones, Bob Brookmeyer, Jim McNeely), and having a band bristling with great soloists and players has made them into the extraordinary unit they are today. I usually try and see them whenever I'm in NY, and on this occasion they were at the top of their form. The set contained an extraordinary long form piece by Bob Brookmeyer, followed by two signature McNeely pieces, and all this bookended by two great swinging Thad pieces. Hearing this music, played so brilliantly by this band, in the most famous jazz club in the world, is what makes New York special for anyone who loves jazz and its traditions.

Rehearsal 

The following day we began the serious work - the reason we came here in the first place, to record the music. But before going into the studio, I'd booked some rehearsal time at Michiko Studios, a favorite professional rehearsal space for New York jazz musicians. That become clear in that while only there for a few hours, I ran into Mark Helias and Nasheet Waits (great guys both - Mark told me he'd got an Irish passport since I'd seen him last!), and saw Lennie White crossing the lobby.

We had four hours to get through seven pieces of varying degrees of complexity - both Chris and I knew the music, and Tom and Dave are both incredibly quick and skillful, so it doesn't take them long to learn new music. In the time that had elapsed since I released 'Renaissance Man', I had written quite a bit of new music, and as someone who composes a lot, I had many compositions which had never been recorded before, so I wasn't short of material. I'd selected pieces that I thought would work for the instrumentation and and the players, and had written two new pieces that I felt would fit well in the overall shape of the recording. It was clear as we went through the pieces that most would go down with little trouble, and a couple of pieces would require a fair bit of work. At the end of the session I was happy that we'd knocked some of the rough corners off the pieces, familiarized ourselves with the shape of them, and made great strides towards ensuring a fruitful two days in the studio.

That evening we went to see Dave's quartet at the 55 Bar - the club he's made into a regular spot for his bands and music. I envy him the luxury of having a place like this to play on a regular basis - this is still the only way you can properly develop music. Dave's quartet, which on this occasion featured John Escreet (piano), Eivind Opsvik (bass, and subbing at the last minute for an indisposed Dan Weiss, Nate Wood on drums. Dave has definitely done that most difficult of things - developed a group sound, and it was a pleasure to hear a working band tear through original material like that. The fact that Nate Wood could play the music so well despite subbing at the last minute, was yet again a testimony to the wealth of talent in New York.

In the Studio

So, at last we got to the studio, the legendary Systems Two in Brooklyn. Incredibly well run by Nancy, Joe and Mike Marciano, this studio is one of the best jazz studios in the world. I say 'jazz studio' because it is set up and run with a complete understanding of the requirements for jazz musicians, and the people who have recorded there read like a who's who of contemporary American jazz. When you record there you can see why it has the reputation it has. I first went there in the mid 90s, recording with Steve Coleman, and was knocked out by how quickly they got a great sound and how easy the whole environment was to work in. Recording is not easy - it's such a different environment to live playing, and sometimes it's hard to get a natural atmosphere going and overcome the potential sterility of the studio.

The difficulty of getting a natural atmosphere can be compounded by poor studio equipment and slowness of the studio engineer and technicians. There's nothing more counterproductive to creative playing than hanging around for ages waiting to get a decent sound or for the engineer to set up the mics. In Systems Two this never happens, and when we arrived everything was set up - music stands, headphones, personal headphone mixer (a HUGE timesaver!), mics, guitar stands - and though there were isolation booths around the saxophone and drums, there were great sight lines everywhere and everyone could see each other, and get a good sound on the headphones.

In the first day we recorded four of the seven pieces, two of which went down very easily and two of which required more work. Again we were helped in our work by the great sound in the studio, and the speed that our engineer Max was able to organise things in the control booth and get a great natural sound for playback purposes. In recording, there are a lot of balancing acts going on - how many takes do you make? Will you get a better take if you do another, or will it get stale? How finicky do you have to be about getting things technically perfect, versus allowing things to sound natural despite the odd glitch here and there? What needs to be fixed in the studio, or what can be fixed afterwards in the editing? All of these things need to be balanced, and there's nothing that helps you more in making your decisions than experience. Even then you can sometimes get it wrong.

(The setup for our session at Systems Two)

But I was very happy with the first day's work, and with such great musicians I always knew that we'd get a good result.

Next day it was back to the studio, and we finished the recording, the very last note being logged at exactly 4pm - the designated finishing time for the session. The big piece on this day was 'Hands', the first movement of my guitar concerto, built on a riff that I love, and here adapted for the quartet. There are quite a lot of tricky passages to be negotiated on this piece, but eventually negotiate them we did - which was a relief, because prior to the session I wasn't sure if it would work in this format or not, but I was very pleased with the final result.

And I was very pleased with the final result of this trip to New York - thanks Dave, Chris and Tom!

I've written before concerning the amount of musicians in New York, and it being a double-edged sword, but it's always great to visit and it's certainly great to have the chance to record there with such great musicians. So much incredible music has been recorded there over the years and it was nice to be even a tiny part of that history.

If you'd like to see some more photos from the session, click HERE

And in case you're interested in getting a taste of what we recorded, HERE are a few short clips of some of the pieces we did - the CD should be out later this year - watch this space!

News and Upcoming Events

Happy New Year! Here’s a little update of some the things I’ll be doing musically over the coming year in case any of these might be of interest to you.

(Tom Rainey, Dave Binney, RG, Chris Guilfoyle)

New CD recording!

Just recently I was in New York recording my new CD featuring Chris Guilfoyle and two of NY’s finest musicians - Dave Binney, and Tom Rainey. We recorded at the wonderful Systems Two in Brooklyn and I’m very happy how everything turned out. Everyone played great and it was great to have the opportunity to record some new compositions. I’ll be mixing and mastering it in the coming months and then getting it out – watch this space!

New rhythm teaching video series

I am very excited to say that (at last!), I’m getting around to putting together a new rhythm teaching video series. I published my rhythm book over ten years ago, and it seems that it continues to be of use to musicians, which is something I find very gratifying. This book is very much aimed at jazz musicians and jazz techniques, but while teaching this material over the years, I noticed that there was a real need for some other material, material that covered more basic things like how to develop your time, how to be able to perceive rhythmic relationships etc.

I’ve been promising (threatening?), to put together all this material for several years now, but at last I’m getting around to it. The format for the material will be through a series of videos which will act as a comprehensive rhythm course for any and all levels of musicians, and for people in any genre. I’m happy to be doing this at last, and I will keep you all posted of how it’s coming along and when it will be ready

Upcoming performances and teaching events

I have a variety of things happening on the playing front over the coming months. February 6^th, in JJ Smyths in Dublin, will see the first performance by the Guilfoyle/Nielsen Trio in nearly four years. The GNT was a group that was very important to me, especially regarding the development of my rhythm concept, and over a fifteen year period we really developed something unique. I’m really looking forward to this reunion!

(Counterparts at the Mermaid Arts Centre)

Later in February I’ll be touring in Ireland with Michael Buckley and two great US musicians -  the guitarist Rick Peckham, and drummer Bob Gullotti, while in March I will be performing with two other great American musicians the saxophonist John O Gallagher and the drummer Jeff Williams. In June I will be performing with my ‘Counterparts’ group at the Centre Culturel Irlandaise in Paris, and in July I will be performing in South Africa at the Grahamstown Festival with Pekka Pyllkannen and Nick Smart, and in September I will be touring in Denmark with the wonderful Danish musicians Lars Moeller and Jonas Johansen. This tour will be celebrating the release of our CD ‘Divisions’ which was released last year and which I am very proud to be part of.

There are various other activities in the works for this year, and I will let you know of them as they develop and come to fruition. In the meantime, I hope you will find something in these various events that will interest you – thanks for listening and I hope to meet as many of you as possible in the real world in the upcoming year!

Thank You!

Just a quick note to thank all of you who have read the blog over the course of the post year. As always, it's been interesting and fun to write and the feedback I've got has been fascinating. And again as always, I can never predict which subjects will touch a chord (no pun intended), with the most readers. This year it was the piece about whether the profession of musician would disappear in time - that got the most response, as did the one about jazz musicians' relationship with their audience.  But there's been a healthy readership for everything, something I find to be both surprising and gratifying.

I notice that since I started the blog in 2009, I have progressively written less posts in each year - this is not intentional on my part, I guess I've just got busier. I also notice about the blog that all the pieces are quite long, which is intentional on my part. I do feel that some things can only be properly examined and argued if you take your time with the details - no matter how anti the current Twitter-esque communication style that may be. But maybe I should write some shorter pieces too - let's see….

I enjoyed interviewing Eric Ineke this year, it's always instructive to talk to great musicians about their lives and work, and I'll be doing more of that in the coming year. I also have some interesting projects of my own coming up - making a new recording, a new educational venture, some different musical projects - which will no doubt find their way into these pages, and no doubt various other musical things will tweak my interest enough for me to out electronic pen to equally electronic paper.

So thank you all so much for reading, a special thanks to those who took the time to write, and I want to wish you all a happy, prosperous, healthy and creative 2014!

PS I actually did manage to write a short one after all!

Interview - Then and Now

Just came across an interview that I did about 10 years ago. Sometimes on reading things you've said or written in the past, you wince because your views have changed so much. But this interview still holds together as far as a lot of what I think about composition and improvisation is concerned. Michael Dungan interviewed me for the Contemporary Music Centre - a resource for Irish contemporary music composition that houses a lot of my compositions - and did a very good job. Would that all interviewers were as thorough………

If you you're interested in reading my ramblings on various subjects, you can read it HERE

Amateur Hour - will the profession of musician go the way of the Blacksmith?

We live, in the arts at least, in the age of the amateur. Technological advances coupled with the ease of internet access, have flooded society with the work of amateur photographers, film makers and musicians.Nothing wrong with that in itself, people have always had fun with the arts as a hobby and hopefully they always will. Being involved in something artistic is so good for anybody. The problem these days is that the flood of material and the sophistication of the technology has blurred the lines between people who dabble and use software to help them look like they know what they're doing, and the people who actually know what they're doing. The torrent of Instagram/Photoshop/Garageband/Youtube type content online is testament to the fact that many people have a sense that they are professional standard artists, when to the professional eye, or ear, they clearly are not. The technology can make you look good for a minute, but as to producing anything high level over an extended period time? I don't think so.

Again, there's nothing wrong with people having a sense of hubris about their Facebook photos - in itself that kind of thing is a harmless human peccadillo. The problem these days is that the professional is being edged out by the flood of amateur content. The hubris has reached the point where the general public either can't tell the difference between high quality work and dabbling, or doesn't care. Professionals are finding it harder and harder to get paid for their work, and to be able to make a living at the arts discipline to which they've devoted years of their lives, and an incredible amount of work. Couple this lack of public discernment between high level work and amateur dabbling, with the reluctance of the public these days to pay for arts content, (especially music), and you have a perfect storm for the professional artist.

I've been thinking about these things for a while, but this post was brought on by a brief conversation I had recently with a part time musician at a performance by an incredibly highly skilled professional group. He said to me 'how can those guys play like that?' and went on to talk about them as if the reason for the gulf in class between him and them was because they were some kind of super-beings. I didn't get into it, because I didn't want to appear rude, and I was too tired at the end of the night, but my immediate mental response was that one very good reason why they could play so much better than he could was because they've devoted their lives to music, and he hadn't. Leaving aside the creative aspects, what we'd seen on the stage was at least partly the result of years of PRACTICE! 

There are certain musical things that can't even be approached unless you've devoted years of time and effort and thought to it, yet in this age of the amateur this aspect of being a high-level artist is becoming forgotten, or is not considered necessary. 'Why should I practice for years when I can use an app?', seems to be the kind of attitude displayed by many. My amateur musician friend thinks nothing of opening for true professional acts, and doesn't seem to see any reason why he shouldn't be up there with people who actually know what they're doing. He seems to think the only reason why he can't do what they can is due to some genetic disparity, and has nothing to do with the fact that he hasn't put in one hundredth of the amount of the work that the pros have.

Which is typical of the disrespect for craft that is so prevalent today

And is something which poses such a threat to the high-level artist. True professionals are competing with amateurs as never before, and trying to make themselves heard above the din of substandard content that floods the internet every day. Combine this with the death of mainstream media,  and the old way of publicising yourself, and the higher valuation given to the method of delivery of content (iPods, Kindle, Ipads etc), over the actual content itself (music, photographs, video etc), and an unwillingness to pay for good content, and you have a situation where the profession of high-level musician is under threat as a viable way to make a living.

It seems to me that unless something changes, the inevitable endgame of all this will be the disappearance of the high-level professional musician. Yes there will always be people playing music and writing music, but will they be any good? Probably not, since they won't have devoted any time to it, and why would anyone devote years of study and financial resources to something that nobody will pay you for? Will the profession of musician end up like that of the Blacksmith - once one of the most common trades in the world and now one of the rarest, maintained by a few very highly paid specialists? I can foresee a situation where there are just a few very highly trained jazz musicians, whom, if you want to hire them, will charge you a LOT of money. Listening to live jazz (or any music that takes a lot of skill and dedication to play), could become like eating in a Michelin-starred restaurant - something very expensive, only available to the well-heeled connoisseur. The rest will have to listen to the McDonald's of the music world  - low class dross, mass produced by amateurs costing little or nothing to produce or buy.

I hope I'm proved wrong, but at the moment it's only going one way - Amateur Hour is here, and looks like it's here to stay.

Interview: Eric Ineke - The Big Beat!

Eric Ineke is one of Europe's most distinguished drummers, with an extraordinary career in which he has played with some of the greatest figures in jazz. For a full picture of the breadth of his career and a fascinating insight into a myriad of great players, and what it was like to work with them, you should read Eric's wonderful book 'The Ultimate Sideman', in which Eric speaks about his experiences and, in conversation with Dave Liebman, explores all aspects of being a sideman at the highest level over a long career. It's a must-read for any serious jazz musician.

I've had the pleasure of working with Eric in recent years, and as a bassist, I can tell you that when you play with Eric, you're playing with the Rolls Royce of the swing beat - you just sit into it and it takes you away effortlessly! We were together at a recent meeting of the IASJ, and I took the opportunity to talk to Eric and ask him about his life, music, and experiences. Eric is a great interviewee -  in conversation, just like his playing, he is honest, passionate and humourous. What follows is a fascinating glimpse into the life and work of a great jazz musician.


RG: How did you get started playing the drums? What age were you and how did it start

EI: Thirteen. I was thirteen years of age, and there was a friend at school who had a snare drum, and I loved to see that and hear that. And plus, I was listening to the radio a lot – jazz programmes and so on. And a son of a friend of my mother’s, he had some drum sticks, and he showed me -  I saw that he was always playing along with records, with drum sticks, like this – {plays jazz swing ride beat}

RG: So, the swing feel

EI: That’s the swing feel! OK, so I got it down and I played along to all the radio programmes, tapping along on the chair

RG: So the first thing you did was the swing beat

EI: Absolutely – I was hooked on that, and I’m still hooked on that, fifty years later (laughs)

RG: So when did you get your first drum set?

EI: Thirteen

RG: Thirteen as well?

EI: Yes, it was an English drum set. It was a snare drum from…..there was an English drummer called Eric Delaney, and Eric Delaney invented a sort of snare drum with a cymbal attached, a crash cymbal. So my brother, my oldest brother, he brought me that snare drum and a hi-hat. So I had that and some brushes.

RG: So did you get any lessons at any point?

EI: Yes, I first got classical lessons for one year, but that didn’t succeed so much because the guy gave me this terrible book of Heinrich Knauer, the German – it already sounds not swinging! (laughs) But he also had a Gene Krupa book, that’s a book from 1938, and he could play that on snare drum. You know, one of those classical snare drum players who loves also to do that. And eventually that was the book I liked most. But after a year, things didn’t work out – I wanted the cymbal beat, I wanted some swing in there, and I didn’t get it from that. And he felt it also, and so I said well, maybe we should stop. But I had already checked out guys like John Engels and Cees See, and I wanted lessons off these guys – that’s what I needed. So I was doing some interviews for the school paper, with a friend of mine who was also a jazz fan, we said ‘let’s do some interviews’, so we did some articles about jazz musicians in Holland and we had a chance to interview the Diamond Five. 

(John Engels)

The Diamond Five was the first really good Hard Bop combo in Holland, and John Engels was the drummer and I thought to myself, ‘if I get a connection there, and get to his house and maybe……” So, I went to his house, and he said, ‘yeah come on, you guys can interview me, but I just have one hour because I have to buy a new refrigerator’, (laughs). So he asked me if I was playing anything and I said yes, I played the drums, and he said ‘here’s a pair of drumsticks, get down in the cellar and play’, so I played something and he said ‘OK, I will give you lessons’

RG: Fantastic

EI: Yes, and my oldest brother he said ‘OK, I’ll pay for 25 lessons’ (laughs). Of course it became a big friendship, and over the years………. That was a great thing, because first of all there were not any jazz schools. They offered me - ‘Eric, if you want to go to the conservatory, it’s possible, but it’s only classical’, and I didn’t want that. So then I had a chance to get lessons from Johnny, and that was great because he had all the recordings – Max Roach, Philly Joe Jones, Charlie Parker – there was a bottle of Jenever on the table, and as soon as he wrote out phrases, he wrote out simple triplets – {sings typical triplet based bebop rhythm} – and I said ‘Hey, OK – this is the way Philly and Max are phrasing’, so as soon as I discovered that, I could figure out what they were playing on the records. So I never transcribed anything, but I did everything by ear. And maybe that’s the best way.

RG:  Definitely. I used to transcribe things, but it was much later when I transcribed full solos, I used to take bits. And of course I didn’t write them down, mostly because I didn’t know how to write (laughs), but I used learn a bit of Woody Shaw, a bit of McCoy Tyner, a little bit of this and that, and they would somehow come together in the playing, or hopefully they would, so I know exactly what you mean.

So what was the first band you played with – how long was it after you started playing, that you began playing with other guys?

EI: That took a couple of years, till I was like around 17, then I started to play with real jazz guys. Slowly I came into that scene.

RG: And of course you’re incredibly well known for playing with so many great visiting musicians. Who was the first guy you played with, who was the first….visiting American probably, though it may not have been.

EI: It was Hank Mobley

RG: That’s a pretty good start! (laughs)

EI: It was only one night, but that night, Hank Mobley came to Holland and I think it was Pierre Courbois who was supposed to do it but he couldn’t make the gig, and so they phoned me to do it. The first night Mobley was supposed to do it, but he got ‘ill’……

RG: Indisposed I think the English call it

EI: Exactly! (laughs) So, I got the gig, but instead of him they got Piet Noordijk, the famous alto player, to do the gig for him. But it was already with Ruud Jacobs on bass, Pim Jacobs who organized it, and Wim Overgaauw on guitar. And Ferdinand Povel joined also, he said ‘Eric I’ll come along as well’, and he came. That meant that everything went well because Rudi was such an exceptionally good player, so he got me off the ground immediately. So it was easy, I’d never experienced anything like that, with such a good bass player, because it runs by itself. And everything went fine and Piet Noordijk, said ‘hey, what’s your telephone number man, because I really like your playing’. So already, that thing got started and a couple of months later he called me for an important gig.

So Pim asked me, ‘could you make it in Groningen next week? Hank Mobley will definitely be there’, and Hank was there, and it seems, I heard that that was the best night of the tour, so I was very lucky to play with him. And I remember, and this is in the book too, he turned around to me and said ‘Yeah man, not everything is coming out yet but it’s swinging!’ (laughs)

RG: So what was he like? Do you have any memory of him?

EI: Not really, I didn’t talk to him – I was so shy, I was only 21 and was very shy. It was Hank Mobley, so I knew him from the records and Wim Overgaauw, the week before, told me that I should come to his house and I’ll give you the album of Hank Mobley with Grant Green’, the famous ‘Workout’ – ‘That album’ he said ‘you should learn’ – so I was listening to it all the time. And of course he didn’t play one tune from it! (laughs)

One nice thing – during the concert he said to Wim Overgaauw, ‘who’s you’re favourite guitar player?’, and Wim said, ‘Grant Green’, and Hank didn’t say anything. And then about 10 minutes later he turned to Wim and said ‘Mine too’ (laughs). But he looked like on the cover of the records with the sunglasses and the jacket – looking cool. And it was great because the phrasing was also different to what I had encountered with the Dutch players, you know, that little feeling of behind the beat, just a little – which of course with Dexter was enormous, but with Mobley it was just slightly behind.

RG: You told me that you went to New York for a while – how did that happen and what effect did it have on you?

EI: That was in 1966, I was 19. They had these student trips for American students from the Amrican Field Service, they organized that the students who studied in Europe could go back to their Daddies and Mummies, in the US in the summer. The Europe-Canada line always had a band on board, most of the time Dixieland. There was one great Dixieland band in Holland, the Beale Street Jazz Band, a very professional band – the piano player was Henk Elkerbout who was already playing in the Skymasters. But the drummer couldn’t make it – normally you go 10 days on the boat, one night in New York, and next night you have to go back. But this trip we could skip one trip, so we could stay three and a half weeks in New York. At our own expense of course, but the travel was free, we got some money on board, all meals – everything was free, so you only had to live in New York, or in the US, wherever you want to go.

The plan was for the whole band to go to California, hire a car – which most of them did. But the trumpet player said to me ‘Eric man, let’s stay in New York – I know some places’ – he had already been in New York before – ‘we’ll take a hotel and not drive through the corn fields!’ (laughs) So we took a hotel in Greenwich Village, and you know, when you’re 19 years old and you arrive in New York at six in the morning, and sail under the Verazzano Bridge, and see the New York skyline, and see the sunshine….. It’s tremendous – tremendous! You never forget that……….

So, we got a hotel – the Hotel Earl, which was right in Washington Square, and the Hotel Earl was where Charles Mingus always had his drinks, Eddie Coleman came there – it was a sort of musicians’ hangout. The hotel was a little bit, you know – funky. It’s still there by the way, though they’ve changed the name to the Hotel Washington, and it looks more decent now. But anyway, we checked in and he said ‘OK, let’s go down to the 5 Spot and see what’s happening’, and I said ‘The 5 Spot – wow!’ So we went to the 5 Spot, it was a Monday night, and there was this little sign hanging on the door of the club ‘Monday night – Elvin Jones Quartet – Paul Chambers, McCoy Tyner’!

RG: Wow!

EI: And I said “Elvin Jones Quartet!? Wait a minute! That’s where I’m going to be tonight!’ (laughs). So that night, at 10 O Clock in the evening I was sitting with a beer in front of Elvin Jones

RG: You won the lottery straight away!

EI: Yeah, I said THAT’s where I want to be, and every Monday night I was sitting there, from 10 till 4. And at 4.O’Clock, Frank Foster went into the kitchen next to the bandstand, practicing till 4.30

RG: Amazing

EI: When I played with him later on, I told him about that, and he was already in his 30s, and he said ‘yeah, that’s when I was a kid!’ (laughs). But it was so great to see Elvin – it was amazing, he had his little Gretsch kit, two cymbals, wearing a suit – his grey suit. And the rhythm section was Chambers with his famous bass with the lion’s head on it – and took his bowing solos he stepped in front and then stepped back again. It was so…….I mean, it was like a fairytale.

RG: I don’t think there’s any recording of Elvin with Paul Chambers…….

EI: There is!

RG: Is there?

EI: Yeah, there’s a record with Tommy Flanagan – I think it’s Clifford Jordan, with Flanagan, Chambers and Elvin. I think there’s a trumpet player on it, I think Donald Byrd, it’s a Blue Note album – I think it’s ‘Whims of Chambers’

RG: I’ll definitely look for it. So would you say that going to New York was a major landmark in making you, or crystallising in your mind, how you wanted to do what you wanted to do?

EI: Yes, definitely! What I saw was 200% jazz, and I said ‘that’s what I want to do, and nothing else’. This was the vibe I got. And I spoke to Joe LaBarbera later on, and he said that this was probably the last year that they had this vibe in New York – the one they had at the beginning of the 60s, the 50s  - that was the last period, because you already felt that there was something new coming up – the free jazz was coming up, and rock and roll – the Mommas and the Poppas, they’re already playing in Central Park, the Beatles…. That whole thing was already coming up, and you felt there was something exciting coming up.

I also went to a free jazz concert, to see the Ornette Coleman Trio with David Izenson and Charles Moffat

RG: Did you? What was the experience of seeing that? Did you find it amazing? Interesting? Disturbing?

EI: No, because everyone talked about David Izenson, because he was a technical wizard. Maybe later on, when I got to know the music better, I realized he wasn’t the greatest swinger in the world (Laughs) But Charles Moffat, he could play really, he was a good drummer, there was something exciting in that trio, you know, like on that Stockholm recording

RG: The Golden Circle recording?

EI: Yes the Golden Circle, and it was in that period. But you know, the free jazz concert, first of all I had to sit through Frank Wright and all these guys….. I hated it! (Laughs) Horrible music – what kind of shit is this!? You know? It was a big mess for two hours, and finally , in the end, Ornette came on.

RG: Ornette must have sounded like Dixieland after that (Laughs)

OK, let me ask you a musical question now. You’ve played with literally hundreds of bass players at this point – of course I’m asking a bass player question (laughs). What do you really like in a bass player – to play with – and what do you really not like?

EI: I think the bass player, and with you that’s never any problem, that uplifting feeling, that springy feeling….. so that as soon as you {hits desk to represent downbeat}, you feel that it’s lifting off the ground right away.  It’s sort of like you feel the upbeat, the off-beat – which I think is a really important thing in swing in general. The offbeat makes it get off the ground, and when a bass player has that, I really like it, because then it’s so easy to play with, you know? Sometimes, some bass players when they play time, and they play good lines, and everything is fine, but you have to work….

RG: I know what you mean – the energy is not there in the quarter note

EI: No, and that’s the difference!

RG: And what do you really hate in a bass player

EI: Dragging! Dragging man – I always think about Jake Hanna, he said ‘don’t ever play with bass players who drag – it gives you back trouble!’ (Laughs) Which is a great remark, because it’s true man, if you stand up in the morning after a whole night working with a bass player who drags, you’ll have back trouble! Because you have to work. I’m the type who….. I have to have this energy!

RG: I know what you mean. Another musical question – a technical musical question. One thing I always notice about your brush playing is the enormous volume you generate from the brushes – you have this huge sound when you play with the brushes. Obviously it’s a conscious thing, but how did you…. (laughs) how do you do that!?

EI: It’s just that I keep the brush on the head and I press it a little bit. And then I get a fat….. always when I heard Elvin and Philly Joe, they had this tremendous fat brush sound. Johnny Engels was always, and still is, a great brush player, and he also could generate a fat brush sound. And when I heard the album ‘Tommy Flanagan Overseas’, with Elvin and Wilbur Little, that’s – in my opinion – the best brush record ever! Because there is a sound with brushes from Elvin that is unsurpassed. It’s so fat and so deep, and when I heard it I said ‘that’s the sound I want to know’, because it gives such a …. I don’t know. It’s like eating apple cake with cream, the best! (laughs) How do you say that…..? It’s the….

RG: The richest thing you can eat

EI: Yes, right! And that sound, that brushes sound – there are so many different ways, there is not ‘a’ way…. when I teach brushes, I just show them the easiest way, but there are so many different ways to do it. Philly has his different ways – I play the circle…….how do you say that?

RG: Clockwise?

EI: Yes, clockwise, but Philly plays the circle the other way around  - that way, and Shelly Manne does the same thing. But I do it the easiest way, I just do it clockwise. But as long as you get the sound you want to have, it doesn’t matter how you do it, it’s just a matter of getting the sound.

RG: And I think that’s a very interesting point, because one thing I notice about a lot of modern drummers is that they don’t get a sound from the brushes

EI: No, that’s true, they are great technicians with the brushes and they could play anything, and could probably play ten thousand times faster than I play – but it’s the sound I want, I love that sound.

RG: Would it be true to say that with brush playing, that one of the reasons the drummers don’t get the same sound, is because they don’t do as many gigs on brushes that you guys had to do because of amplification etc?

EI: Maybe so

RG: And working with singers etc

EI: Yes, both playing with singers and playing nightclubs. My brush playing really came together when I had these guitar/bass/drums gigs, you know, in a bar – I’d just say to myself, ‘Tonight I’m not gonna use even one drumstick, I’ll just play brushes. I’ll go four-to-the-floor with the bass drum, and play brushes’, and that’s what I did. And people would say ‘Hey Eric, will you play the sticks?’ – no way!  

RG: I heard a funny story about some saxophone player who was playing with Philly Joe, and Philly Joe was playing the brushes – completely killing as alays, and the saxophone player turned around to Philly and shouted ‘Sticks!”, and Philly Joe shouted back, ‘Flute!’

(Both laugh)

EI: That’s very good!

RG: One person I’ve been listening to a lot recently is Jimmy Raney, and he’s a very underrated guy, almost forgotten, even among the guitar players. But he has this gigantic sound, a wonderful sound, apart from the great lines – now you worked a lot with him…..

EI: I did four tours with Jimmy. I first met Jimmy in ’77, because Gerry Teekens, who later started Criss Cross Records, he was bringing those guys like Warne Marsh, Lee Konitz, Peter Ind, and Raney. Because Raney was back again, he didn’t drink anymore, he was getting clean and he came back to New York. So he (Gerry Teekens) heard that and he said he should come over again, so he brought him over. Al Levitt was the drummer, but at the end of the tour Jimmy fired Al Levitt, because he said to Al Levitt , ‘Can you play me a decent intro, like 8 bars?’,  and Al Levitt played him a march! (Laughs)

So there were some gigs left, like one in Lausanne in Switzerland, and Gerry called me said ‘Hey Eric can you do this gig?’ And I’d heard some stories about Jimmy, that he was not easy for drummers, because he just wanted to have this nice light and swinging thing – easy to play with.  So I was afraid, and I knew he played with Tiny Kahn and Osie Johnson and all those guys – he liked those drummers. I’d already met Doug in The Hague, his son Doug was already hanging out in The Hague, so I’d met him also, just right before that. So I met Jimmy at the airport in Amsterdam, Gerry called me and told me that there was a flight ticket for me for Switzerland and so and so… and I met Jimmy, and he was such a decent nice…..

RG: So all the stories that had frightened you weren’t true?

EI: He was so nice, and polite and easy, and then as soon as we did the soundcheck in this hall in Lausanne – that’s where Jarrett did that solo recording, in that hall – he played, I think it was ‘There Will Never Be Another You’, just doing the soundcheck, and he immediately turned around, smiling at me, he said, ‘that’s what I like!’  - so the ice was broken immediately. So after these couple of dates we did, we said goodbye and he went back, and then in 1980 I met him in Nice, I played at the festival with a Dutch band, and Jimmy was there with Lee Konitz. And I bumped into him – I get offstage and there he is. He was on this big package – George Wein package tour, he got everyone on the plane – Hank Jones, Roy Haynes, Jimmy Cobb, everybody together on stage (laughs)

RG: Like a circus!

EI: Yes, and Jimmy said ‘Hey Eric, what are you doing here?’, I said, ‘playing’ and he said , ‘come to the hotel’, and I went, I had my wife with me, and he said ‘let’s get you a cup of coffee and talk’. So I went and, and he invited us to the concert with Lee, and he told me ‘You know Lee, he’s playing so behind – terrible!’ (laughs) He hated it! And when I came home, Gerry Teekens called me again and said, ‘I heard you met Jimmy Raney, how is he, is he good? Because I want to bring him over again’. And I said yes, he’s OK, he’s fine.  So the next year he called me to do the tour with Doug and Jesper Lundgaard. And then every year, for three years in a row, we did a long tour – Holland, Germany, Paris, Belgium, and that was great. And he always invited me personally with a letter

RG: Very nice

EI: Very nice – ‘Eric We’d love to have you on….’, and I thought, ‘wow….’

RG: I hope you kept those letters!

EI: Yes I kept them of course. And to be on the stage, and hear the sound of Jimmy – it was just a huge sound. I mean it wasn’t loud or something like that, but it’s a huge sound. And the time Ronan, was the best time I ever heard from any guitar player. It was so good – and the lines he played…. It never stops, it goes on. He just sits there like this {imitates classic Raney pose – see photo above}, foot on one and three, and aaww…..it was…. The only thing I had to do was play time – it runs by itself! I never encountered anything like that, I said ‘this is what time should be’, for me, eventually this is what it should be. It’s relaxed, it’s not like, hanging……. It’s relaxed, it’s easy, it’s not rushing. In fact I think a lot of guitar players, they want to play so much guitar. It’s like piano players who want to play….

RG: All ten fingers

EI: Right. But the real bebop players, they play those lines, like Barry Harris. And Jimmy was the same thing – they play like horn players, and I think that’s probably what made him different.

Here's a track from 'Raney '81'  - 'Bill Evans' 'Peri's Scope' - with Eric on drums, Jesper Lundgaard on bass, and Doug Raney on second guitar

RG: I know in your book you talk about many different people, but maybe for the purposes of this interview, maybe you could tell me about someone you have particularly fond memories of – either playing or as a person, or both – and someone that you found quite difficult.

(Frank Foster)

EI: Well I was fond of Jimmy of course, and I was fond of Frank Foster. With Frank Foster you hear the whole history of the tenor saxophone – it goes from Coleman Hawkins up to Coltrane. It comes along over the whole night, sometimes even in just one blues! We played ‘Billies’ Bounce’ I think it was, in Belgium, there’s a tape of it, he started of like Coleman Hawkins, and in a twenty minute solo, a twenty/twenty five minute solo, by the end he was completely screaming, like Coltrane – it’s incredible! (Laughs) Very nice man also, and I found it great the way the energy came off him.

But there were so many good ones…. I loved Pete Chrislieb, easy to play with, great time feel – great time feel, reminds me of Cannonball on tenor. There are so many easy players, some real mainstream players, like Scott Hamilton. But I love to play with Dave (Liebman) too, because he generates this………. They’re so different, there’s no such thing as the best of whatever, you know what I mean?

But a guy like Lee Konitz? He can be a pain in the ass! (Laughs) I tell you……… because his personality – one day it’s this and the other day it’s that.  Maybe he’s very unsure about himself, it’s a sort of insecurity. Sometimes you know, he wants the rhythm section to play more free, and it doesn’t work, and then he’ll say ‘OK let’s play like this…’, and so every night it’s different, but I think the best way with Lee is to just go straight ahead, and let him go, you know? Sometimes he’ll just play one note, and nothing happens because he’s not inspired, he can’t find it. But some nights it was great, he even started singing! He made the whole band do enforced scatting – even me I had to! Not play the fours on the drums, but scatting – he’s nuts! (laughs)

(Ack Von Rooyen)

But on the other hand, on the last tour I did with him, his behavior was very strange. We had Ack Von Rooyen…

RG: Right, the trumpet player

EI: And we thought it would be nice to get these two older statesmen of jazz together – Ack a lyrical player, Lee a lyrical player together, for seven or eight concerts. And Lee was behaving…. I don’t know if he has… I think he has a big ego – the whole concert he was standing behind the rhythm section

RG: While he was playing!?

EI: Yes! Ack was standing in front!

RG: (Laughs) That’s bizarre!

EI: I mean, what is this? A new wave or something? He was standing all the time behind me!

RG: That’s very strange

EI: And he didn’t have any contact with Ack, and Ack was feeling very uncomfortable! (laughs) So things like that – Lee Konitz, in other ways he could be very nice, Lee, but no he’s not easy – one week of Lee Konitz is enough!  (Laughs)

RG: You’re playing for how long now? Fifty years?

EI: Yes, something like that.

RG: And I know one of the great things, from watching you play, and playing with you, is the vibe, the enthusiasm for playing.

EI: Yes

RG: Is this something you…. I mean, how do you maintain this? Because this is a very interesting question, and especially for young musicians. Because when you’re younger, it’s easier in a way. I don’t mean that in any kind of dismissive way, but it’s a bit easier because, you know, you’re young, you have energy, you have your life in front of you and all that stuff. But when you get older, you know, life becomes more complicated, everything becomes more complicated. And it definitely becomes less easy to maintain the enthusiasm, as you get older, because your life is different.

So, for you, as someone who has literally played thousands of gigs, and I watched you play the jam session last night, and you were having the time of your life – after midnight etc etc, and you looked like you couldn’t be doing anything better with your life than what you were doing at that moment. So, and this may be a stupid question, how do you maintain your enthusiasm, after all these years of playing?

EI: It’s the energy I have I guess, in myself, and also I love the music so much. And, I need to swing! It’s just a life source, it’s still a life source. I wouldn’t dream of retiring!  My wife said, ‘You retiring!? Man, you would be a pain in the ass! Please shut up!’ (Both laugh), ‘you would be the most difficult person in the world!’ And also, the thing is, that’s my way of teaching I guess – I’ve heard it many times from people I play with, that they love that I kick ass – and that’s what I do with students too, to give them the input, to make them play, and make them study, and give them the enthusiasm for the music. I love jazz…. Ronan, I love jazz so much man. It’s my life……

RG: Fantastic…..

Thank you very much Eric

EI: Thank you Ronan, it was a pleasure

And to finish - here's a clip of Eric playing with Sonny Fortune and Benjamin Herman - all the trademarks are here - the spacious beat, the powerful quarter note, the commitment, the relentless swing. You can see from this clip why Eric has been in such demand for so many years, and why he's the master of the Big Beat!