tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post5346497420500277570..comments2024-02-01T12:37:55.180+00:00Comments on Mostly music: Elitist? Moi!?Ronan Guilfoylehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comBlogger10125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-62886214925612136722011-07-03T22:55:33.926+01:002011-07-03T22:55:33.926+01:00"Most jazz musicians I know – and I know a lo..."Most jazz musicians I know – and I know a lot! - just get on with it, work on their music and are doing the best they can. They don’t waste any time looking down on other people, they’re too busy practicing and trying to make a living!"<br /><br />Well put.<br /><br />Most great jazz players I know are well rounded, respect musicians of many disciplines, have a good sense of humor (usually self-deprecating.)<br /><br />I think that what drives jazz musicians that I know a bit batty is that they aren't treated with anywhere near the *respect* they feel they deserve as professionals from other disciplines. Being treated with respect is something htat all people deserve. That includes people who commit to a difficult craft/art like jazz music.mjazzhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/10600217412350230167noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-68285191810696205442011-06-14T23:13:19.285+01:002011-06-14T23:13:19.285+01:00I enjoyed the piece and the comments...
I think ...I enjoyed the piece and the comments... <br /><br />I think every "elitist" conversation is different, depending on who you're talking with and what they bring out of you. The key is whether one simply states a position confidently or gives off a whiff of superiority. And because it's about music, it's pre-loaded emotionally.Steve Provizerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09757505876939504133noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-18112791413664116982011-06-14T06:59:22.393+01:002011-06-14T06:59:22.393+01:00I guess for me the distinction is between a jazz m...I guess for me the distinction is between a jazz musician expressing this sort of "elitist" attitude about jazz musicians (which I do think is appropriate for the reasons outlined here; the baseline for what's necessary to be a decent professional jazz musician is just a lot more elevated than it is for most of the music you hear on a daily basis) and expressing the elitist attitude about jazz as a music. I guess this runs me afoul of Mr. Scarbrough, but I don't consider this as a refusal to assign value; rather I would say that when it comes to art, the only value that matters to me is the subjective value I assign to art, which (since it originates entirely from inside me) is no more or less valid (or valuable) than anyone else's. The only question about music that really matters to me is "how does it make me feel?" which isn't a subject that really allows for any fruitful back-and-forth.<br /><br />Coltrane was undeniably a better musician than, say, Jeff Beck is, by any objective criterion you want to apply. But if Coltrane and Beck have equally powerful effects on me, then I can't say Trane is better because his command of his instrument, knowledge of music, etc., was so clearly superior.medrawthttps://www.blogger.com/profile/16245140880936526970noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-78350492408102560452011-06-13T20:19:18.591+01:002011-06-13T20:19:18.591+01:00Yes, that's a very good point Russell - the &#...Yes, that's a very good point Russell - the 'everything is equal to everything else' concept. I think people who do things of real value should be not afraid to say so - yes, we ARE really good!' might be a refreshing thing to hear from time to time.<br /><br />After all there are many worlds which revel in quality work - food and cooking immediately springs to mind - so why not the arts? And why not music? And why not jazz!?Ronan Guilfoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-22547256127983816392011-06-13T18:54:34.602+01:002011-06-13T18:54:34.602+01:00Hello Ronan,
Thanks for a very relevant post (and...Hello Ronan,<br /><br />Thanks for a very relevant post (and a very familiar-sounding one at that, reminding me of a number of conversations over the past few years).<br /><br />One thing to be acknowledged here is the PC-ification of the word "elite" (at least here in the US), making it into a label for something very bad. It has become a all-purpose dirty word, a pejorative to throw around haphazardly at anything one wants to simple-mindedly classify as anti-populist, over-intellectual, snobby, snooty, or not economically expedient. (It also now has an overtly political connotation as well).<br /><br />It's come out of this idea that somehow, things that require commitment and discipline should not be seen as "better" or "more valuable" than those that do not. Anyone that considers what they do to have quantitatively more importance/value than someone else's work is therefore "elitist" (ie, some kind of stuck-up, judgmental snob).<br /><br />Since we live in a post-modern world, where nothing is seen to really be of any value, then to start assigning value to things is really the biggest sin, hence the demonization of elitism.... and not coincidentally, the marginalization of things like classical music and jazz, and the rise in the perceived significance of commercial music, since all you have to do to be a success there is Believe In Yourself, apparently.Russell Scarbroughhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/11469966915775596117noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-959274819816571812011-06-13T10:34:23.797+01:002011-06-13T10:34:23.797+01:00Thanks to everyone for responding.
Amanda, I comp...Thanks to everyone for responding.<br /><br />Amanda, I completely understand the situation you describe at your school. I teach in a jazz school here in Dublin and I wouldn’t say that all the students are 100% into jazz and see themselves as becoming jazz musicians when they leave. But whether you fundamentally identify with jazz or not, I think the beauty of what’s called a ‘jazz education’ is that it gives you an incredibly broad based and complete music education, covering huge swathes of material – technical, theoretical and aesthetic. It is, in short, a liberal arts education in music. I believe that any serious musician would benefit from studying jazz in a jazz school, whether or not they become working jazz musicians afterwards. I think they not only benefit themselves from the education, they also benefit others in the wider music world by becoming music teachers who actually know something about music! <br /><br />And I must say I find it touching when young people, such as yourself, opt to study jazz – I think by doing that, by choosing to study a demanding art form that is difficult to make a living from or that has a clear career path, they already set themselves apart from the herd as being people who want more than the 1+1=2 life choices most people take. And we need those kinds of people now more than ever........<br /><br />Fernando I think people are intimidated by the music and the musicians – but it’s a knee-jerk reaction. There’s usually very little thought gone into it when people accuse jazz musicians as being ‘elitist’. Most jazz musicians I know – and I know a lot! - just get on with it, work on their music and are doing the best they can. They don’t waste any time looking down on other people, they’re too busy practicing and trying to make a living!Ronan Guilfoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-6160044569016271662011-06-12T17:34:29.919+01:002011-06-12T17:34:29.919+01:00Great post, especially the distinction between cra...Great post, especially the distinction between craft and art. I wouldn't go into the art bit, but craft-wise is indisputable that jazz musicians are an elite for the reasons you mentioned. And no reason to be ashamed of it or hide it.<br /><br />I wonder, though, whether people who view jazz as elitist are intimidated by the music/musicians or by the audiences. People go to jazz gigs for a variety of reasons, some of them related to the music itself, but in my experience people in jazz gigs get excited mostly by the basic stuff, that is, higher volume, higher notes, fast tempos, drum solos, and tenor sax/trumpet codas. I wouldn't call that an elite audience.<br /><br />F<br /><br />PS @Amanda, I'd love for you or someone else to elaborate on "the other half of jazz majors aren't interested in jazz AT ALL". I understand what you say, but I don't get the rationale for that.Fernando Ortiz de Urbinahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/09630700849177588445noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-12496303457218494012011-06-12T08:39:05.599+01:002011-06-12T08:39:05.599+01:00This post was a really interesting read for me - s...This post was a really interesting read for me - so interesting in fact that I felt the urge to comment instead of my usual lurk and leave routine - mainly because of how relevant this discussion is to me. As a current jazz student at university, it's always been interesting to see how the different music majors perceive one another. Us jazz students only had one paper in common with all the other music majors, which was an aural/listening course with rather basic theory at the beginning of the first year. And right off the bat, you could tell who did classical performance, pop, composition, general music or jazz. There is a general, very obvious vibe that jazz majors look down upon pop students (three guesses why that is...), and classical majors look down on everyone else whilst we viewing us as a bunch of weirdos. I mean, for one it’s funny how they don’t quite act more elite than us because they don’t understand jazz at all – in Music 101 they couldn’t decipher the very basic jazz chord notations such as C7, etc. However, I am very grateful and thankful for the decade plus of classical training I had had as a child so that I had a firmer foundation to build jazz on.<br /><br />Also, whilst jazz is now the main chunk of my life, I still feel that in a broader, long-term scheme, that I will never quite be a jazz musician like some of my fellow students will become. Sure, I will become more and more competent on the electric and double bass, and feel some satisfaction in that, but I don't think I will ever live-breathe-and-sleep jazz like some of my peers. But having said that, the other half of jazz majors aren't interested in jazz AT ALL, so I would have to say I'm in the middle ground. And here is where this whole "elitism" thing kicks in. Even those of us who aren't as jazz-obsessed realise its value and difficulty - that's why we're doing it. So it’s really frustrating whenever the general population draws upon myths like “but jazz is so easy, you just play random notes!” that people just have NO IDEA how much more complex jazz is. And I guess it’s because of this – because jazz is largely musicians’ music – that makes jazz so “elitist”.Amandahttps://www.blogger.com/profile/15327360561440569665noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-76810532841457095432011-06-11T02:05:24.186+01:002011-06-11T02:05:24.186+01:00I think technically musicians who train Classicall...I think technically musicians who train Classically and in Jazz are the elite. I mean there is no denying the amount of training and time needed to progress in these genres. But I emphasize the word "technically". <br /><br />Being technically good is great but other musicians who might not have as much of this I would equally call a fellow musician if they are able to place just as much or more soul into their "simpler" form of music. <br /><br />As long as they are dedicating their life to whatever form of music they play I feel these are the "elite" because its almost a devout effort to fill your soul with that form of expression.<br /><br />maybe?Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-23212989587687895992011-06-10T11:32:30.417+01:002011-06-10T11:32:30.417+01:00Another great post, Ronan. Funny how no one uses t...Another great post, Ronan. Funny how no one uses the word 'elitism' in an accusative fashion when talking about sports.Paul Mitchell Brownhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/03170752690861255559noreply@blogger.com