tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post2156713836158196942..comments2024-02-01T12:37:55.180+00:00Comments on Mostly music: In Defence of Jazz EducationRonan Guilfoylehttp://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comBlogger16125tag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-59453543013124616882014-01-26T05:36:45.188+00:002014-01-26T05:36:45.188+00:00I believe that Mr. Guilfoyle misses the point on s...I believe that Mr. Guilfoyle misses the point on several issues. When college jazz programs came into existence they separated the musician from the audience. The jazz culture involved the musician, audience, (casual and erudite), proprietors, etc., and musicians developed their creativite impulses with the listernship in mind. College trained musicians develop their concepts without a single thought to how it would play in front of patrons, and this disconnect leads to the separation between these entities and this has more than an economic consequence.<br />The jazz culture had certain attributes that passed into oblivion when the center of jazz education became the universities. Examples of this jazz cultural system can be seen in mantras such as “one must pay his dues”, or “the music is something you have to live”. The jazz culture has been replaced by a fraternity mentality (Kappa Delta Jazz) where listening to recordings overrides hearing live music and where Coltrane and Bird are icons but students don’t seek out their local legends. Of course jazz education also took the music out of the jurisdiction of the African-American community and placed it the hands of the Board of Trustees at Colleges as well.<br />Lincoln Collier’s remarks are surely misinformed. My mentors in Newark, NJ were some of the most analytic and theoretical musicians I’ve ever met and the fact that they did not display a PHD on their wall did not insinuate they had no training, but their training was also steeped in blues theory, which is frequently absent on the university level. A good article that explores this is David Ake’s “Jazz Historiography and The Problem of Louis Jordan”. It is definitely accurate that the basic same canon of jazz is used at the university level. Where is Jimmy Smith, where is Earl Bostic, Eddie Cleanhead Vincent, Shirley Scott? Your question should be would John Coltane have sounded like he did without his work with these important jazz figures prior to his tenure with Miles. I suggest had he gone to a jazz school instead of working on the chitlin circuit he would have sounded quite different and that does not deny his genius or originality.Radam Schwartz<br />Anonymoushttps://www.blogger.com/profile/05279379212951800431noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-27171894710609153582009-12-08T19:51:23.370+00:002009-12-08T19:51:23.370+00:00the point you made about schools providing a commu...the point you made about schools providing a community for artists is exactly how I would have put it. I tried learning the old fashioned way (but with lots of extra help from all the private lessons and books I could afford) but I found I wasn't getting nearly enough experience playing with other musicians simply because I didn't know many. The biggest resource in college I've found as a student is the other students, not the teachers or how/what they teach.<br /><br />But that means the success of an education is equally the student bodies responsibility. I put off going to college for a long time because I thought the competitive (male centered) environment of colleges tends to encourage 'hard' music rather than 'good' music, and although I think this is true to a degree, in my experience so far I've found its mostly the fault of students rather than teachers. <br /><br />I'm probably not one of the 'head and shoulders above the rest' students who will be a real innovator, and I definitely don't think that means that the education is waisted on me, or that if I graduate and don't become a 'great player' that I am proving a point about the downfalls of jazz education.Anonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-44293264452889020092009-11-15T15:56:12.193+00:002009-11-15T15:56:12.193+00:00I thought your article was brilliant Ronan. I gra...I thought your article was brilliant Ronan. I graduated from a jazz education program and consider three of the best years of my life, certainly three of the years where I worked harder than I had ever before. I concur that point of any place of higher learning is to enable the student to think critically and to be able to continue learning after leaving. It is ludicrous to consider that for the “purity” of jazz, the players should have no educational background in their instrument. It is also patently false. Virtually all of the great jazz musicians of the past had some degree of training, some like Oscar Peterson or Miles Davis had a significant degree. In fact, when Miles first went to New York in the late 40’s, it was to attend Julliard! When I graduated almost 30 years ago, we were told that only a very few of us would be able to make our livings by playing music exclusively. It wasn’t a comment on our abilities, or the school or anything else. It was just a statement of fact. If you are so serious about your art that you are willing to undergo the risks and privations that go along with the life of an artist, then you will make those sacrifices. Many people (including me) don’t want to live that way. Jazz schools are a valuable support system for an extremely important cultural component of our musical milieu. I thought at the time I was attending that I was privileged to be there, and I haven’t changed my opinion.<br /><br />Mike Milner<br />Orillia, ON<br />CanadaMike Milnerhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/14955630615622547514noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-86688387383751796072009-09-14T15:54:48.057+01:002009-09-14T15:54:48.057+01:00I do not think it abnormal that jazz is now a part...I do not think it abnormal that jazz is now a part of most well rounded University and conservatory music programs. The acceptance of Jazz into the university curriculum has been gradual and controversial along the way. Early university professors trying to start Jazz programs met considerable resistance. This controversy stemmed from among numerous reasons the ill-conceived notion that Jazz music was not of the highest artistic quality and did not deserve a place beside of classical music. As it should, Jazz has endured all of its challenges and made its way from the Cakewalk, dance halls and nightclubs to eventually be accepted at university recital and concert halls. For if musicians as prominent as Ravel, Stravinsky, and Bernstein should admire jazz music and allow it to influence their musical style and methods of composition, then how can it be considered too lowbrow to be included into a well rounded university music program? This reason is my primary rationale that jazz is indeed our indigenous art music and should be a part of every well-rounded music program at the university level. <br />It is very upsetting that jazz education has been met with resistance by narrow-minded people who perhaps did not quite understand their own music. I am referring to the unyieldingly old fashioned, white classical music professor who in the past has looked down upon people in the jazz profession. It is ludicrous that this professor thinks it proper to condescend to the very type of music that his idols venerated. A case could be made out of this singular reason that jazz belongs in every well-rounded university music program.<br /><br />Sincerely,<br /><br />Rodney Lancaster<br />www.rodneylancaster.comanonhttps://www.blogger.com/profile/17104725470098506235noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-2163980635176908562009-09-01T07:19:16.509+01:002009-09-01T07:19:16.509+01:00Thanks Jovino and Bruno - I'm glad you enjoyed...Thanks Jovino and Bruno - I'm glad you enjoyed it, and thanks for the feedback!Ronan Guilfoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-58858354722906990012009-08-31T10:00:45.680+01:002009-08-31T10:00:45.680+01:00Hello Mr. Guilfoyle,
Ditto, but I will forward yo...Hello Mr. Guilfoyle,<br /><br />Ditto, but I will forward your inspiring essay to my colleagues in Berlin, Bonn and Cologne.<br /><br />Thank you, and all best,<br /><br />BrewAnonymousnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-3833778178529988652009-08-11T17:08:05.464+01:002009-08-11T17:08:05.464+01:00Ronan,
Thanks for a most insightful post. As a jaz...Ronan,<br />Thanks for a most insightful post. As a jazz educator, I felt inspired by reading it, and have forwarded it to my colleagues at Conrish College of the Arts in Seattle.<br />All the best!<br />Jovino Santos NetoJovinohttps://www.blogger.com/profile/01842652091480145283noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-14430669285986620992009-07-12T18:17:40.853+01:002009-07-12T18:17:40.853+01:00Thanks for your comments Roberto and Will
Roberto...Thanks for your comments Roberto and Will<br /><br />Roberto I think you're absolutely right about the fact that though the reason we study jazz is not primarily economic, there are real professional benefits to studying in a jazz school. It really does give you an invaluable set of skills as a musician - and you're right that it's very difficult to get the the craft of music together when you're older - it's definitely a young person's game<br /><br />And Will, while I take your point about the problems of having stuff loaded onto you, some of which you felt was unnecessary and possibly irrelevant, I think it's important to point out that not all schools are the same. In my school we start pretty basic the first year, with simple groove type tunes for improvising at first, before moving on to more complex progressions.<br /><br />But in any school, as I mentioned in my post, you have the problem of trying to educate the many instead of the individual - it’s impractical to tailor a curriculum to each individual student so some do get caught in the cross-hairs for sure. Taking students individually is a much more holistic way of teaching in general since you can respond to the individual needs of the student much more flexibly in a one-on-one situation than you can in a school setting. I'm glad you found a learning environment that suits you<br /><br />Thanks for respondingRonan Guilfoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-87610652988157408922009-07-12T18:14:57.208+01:002009-07-12T18:14:57.208+01:00This comment has been removed by the author.Ronan Guilfoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-27992363939558790832009-07-10T19:32:20.031+01:002009-07-10T19:32:20.031+01:00My main beef with jazz education is not the above ...My main beef with jazz education is not the above points, but the actual process of how they teach it. When I was at college they had a lot of extraneous information/courses that were required as part of the curriculum, such as classical history, electives (english, pyschology,etc), learning piano (for jazz guitar performance), overwhelming theory/analysis/exercises with 6-8 courses, starting with overly complex tunes before mastering the basics, etc.<br /><br />So instead of being able to focus on one thing (eg. chord tones) and mastering it, they threw everything at us, making it difficult to absorb it all. Having done a master's degree in engineering I was no stranger to hard work and discipline. And then when you complain you are perceived as a whiner.<br /><br />I've been studying with Jimmy bruno via his guitar institute online and it is more like an apprentice system. Focus on one thing at a time, he gives feedback via videos, learning songs, and it's a step by step system, and he avoids a lot of the usually taught complexity (modes for example).Will Kriskihttp://membershipschool.com/selling-accessnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-63765596802662768262009-07-10T12:07:34.283+01:002009-07-10T12:07:34.283+01:00Hi Ronan, I completely agree with your statements....Hi Ronan, I completely agree with your statements. Congratulations! There' s one more aspect about jazz education, that Gary Keller mentioned in Lucerne: If you think about economic reasons why you study jazz it's surely not a good approach because it's about the music itself and nothing else. But if you don't study music because of economic reasons and you will regret it when you're older, there's no way you can start beeing a musician at an older age. It's too late, and you may regret it for the rest of your life. The other way around: It's much easier to start studying engeneering or medecine or whatsoever at an age of 30 and beyond.Roberto Bossardhttp://www.robertobossard.chnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-20717210032877556912009-07-09T23:31:12.094+01:002009-07-09T23:31:12.094+01:00Just reading your post again Willard - that's ...Just reading your post again Willard - that's a very good point about the fact that anyone can make a recording these days, (as opposed to former times where at least there was some kind of meritocracy at work), and the resultant glut of recordings available, both good and bad. I hadn't really thought about that in that context - but I will now! ThanksRonan Guilfoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-61044023057236653692009-07-09T23:21:41.814+01:002009-07-09T23:21:41.814+01:00Scott, Willard and Chris - thanks for your comment...Scott, Willard and Chris - thanks for your comments. I've been amazed at the reaction to this post - I 've had so many responses to my website and email as well. I had no idea it would provoke such a reaction.<br /><br />Thanks for the compliments Willard - I don't live in the US and am not an American and so wouldn't feel qualified to to speculate as to why there are so few African-Americans in US jazz programmes. And I'm not sure what you mean about the lack of cultural diversity in European jazz programmes - if you'd care to elaborate I'd be happy to respond if I can.<br /><br />And you're right Chris, no school can create a truly original musician - but schools can help the truly original as well as the average. It doesn't matter how brilliant you are, you're still going to need access to information and people to play with, and schools can and do provide both of those thingsRonan Guilfoylehttps://www.blogger.com/profile/02668316692753726447noreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-43807720651295124572009-07-09T20:59:29.378+01:002009-07-09T20:59:29.378+01:00Jazz ed works to the benefit of the *average* jazz...Jazz ed works to the benefit of the *average* jazz player (of which there are many), but does little to help produce truly original artists (of which there are few). Genius will tell, formal education or no.Chris Kelseyhttp://www.chriskelsey.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-21155990129975478892009-07-09T19:27:40.737+01:002009-07-09T19:27:40.737+01:00My compliments Ronan, this is a beautifully and qu...My compliments Ronan, this is a beautifully and quite reasonably made case. There are plenty of side streets, alleyways, and tributaries we might explore from this piece (like the dwindlng number of black students in jazz programs of higher learning in the U.S. -- and perhaps total absence of cultural diversity in particularly European jazz education programs(?)), but I'm sure Ronan would rather leave that to other forums. This is a very thought-provoking and logic-driven piece, in particular thoroughly debunking such naysayers as James Lincoln Collier and Stuart Nicholson (both of whom are curiously viewed by many as outright racists in their jazz commmentary). In many cases what the naysayers are complaining about strikes more to the easy access musicians now enjoy -- whether they are ready or not/mediocre or truly have something to say -- in putting their thoughts down on record and subsequently making them available. THAT's where the glut exists -- and that's a genie that I'm afraid has long since escaped the bottle.<br />Peace,<br />Willard Jenkins<br />www.openskyjazz.com <br />Home of The Independent EarWillard Jenkinshttp://www.openskyjazz.comnoreply@blogger.comtag:blogger.com,1999:blog-5526704657739088406.post-39422364947480377882009-07-06T12:04:14.825+01:002009-07-06T12:04:14.825+01:00Beautifully stated, Ronan; exactly as I might hav...Beautifully stated, Ronan; exactly as I might have have said it myself. And from my perspective as someone who works in both jazz and classical music, the issues, dangers, and benefits are the same across the stylistic panorama (not divide). The best type of jazz education program is built on a foundation of fostering individuality and creativity that is rarely found in classical music education, and, romantic view aside, wasn't always present in the working worlds of us or our forbearers.Scott Stromannoreply@blogger.com